Aly Dabbs is a sleep consultant specializing in toddler sleep. Today, Garrett asks her questions that range from newborn sleep to toddler sleep, hoping to solve her son's sleep issues. Aly sheds light on how to make bedtime fun, how she navigates naps with two littles, and some sleep hacks she swears by.
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Q: Who are you before labels, titles, or what someone could Google about you?
A: I am from Tennessee, so a southern girl through and through. I'm just outside of Nashville and my husband and I actually used to be police officers, which people probably would never guess that in a million years. Then, we moved to Maine and we did a lot of hiking and adventuring. I learned how to snowboard because skiing was a disaster, but I had a lot of fun. Then, we were ready to start our family. So, we moved back to the Nashville area. We have two wildly adventurous, crazy, fun, sweet boys. So, I'm a mom. Life is much more boring. I host a book club. I play with my kids. That's kind of the highlight.
Q: How did you shift careers from police officer to all that you're doing now?
A: So, when we were in Maine, I was still a police officer there. Then, I knew that we would have a family, and it's very hard. The police world is kind of like you're married to the job. It's really hard to have a family and do things outside of work. I had gone to school for paralegal studies, so I ended up working for a law firm. Then, fast forward, we moved back to Tennessee. I was working for the city and the legal department and doing HR things and I was feeling really stuck there.
I remembered with our first baby, he slept through the night. He was waking up to feed a gazillion times because he was a nine pound, ten ounce baby, but he would go back to sleep really easily. But, naps were terrible. I was working from home at the time and I was missing meetings. I was just not focusing. I would come upstairs for nap time and spend hours trying to get him to sleep. I would rub the spot between the eyebrows. I'm texting my best friend, “This is the definition of crazy. Every day I expect this to be different and it's the exact same and nothing is working. As soon as I lay him down, he's awake.”
Then, my poor husband would come home from work and I was just the worst and snappy and just awful. I remembered when I was pregnant, I had listened to this podcast and she had a bunch of experts on. She's amazing. In the back of my head, I was like, “Oh yeah, she had a sleep consultant on.” So, I went back. I listened to her episode and I ended up reaching out to her—and that was a game changer. She really taught me that I needed to get out of his way a little bit and let him figure some things out. Once naps got better, overnight stretches got a little longer and everything kind of clicked into place. If you could bottle that all up, it felt like magic.
So, when I was pregnant with our second and I wasn't really happy at work, I was feeling this strong pull that I needed to do something more meaningful, something that I could be proud of. The only thing that kept coming up—which was so random—was sleep consulting. If I could be able to help other moms go through that same really hard time.
I know you have a little one. Nights can be really scary. Everyone's asleep. It's all dark outside. There's not really a lot of people that you can ask for help or talk to. If you're a mom and you're breastfeeding, it's probably just you waking up. So, they can feel really long and terrifying, even if you have all the help in the world. So, it was just something that I really felt that I needed to do to be able to help support other moms through that time that feels really isolating and hard.
Q: So, what did getting out of the way look like for you?
A: I know one thing that I was doing was as soon as he started to grunt or make noise or wake up a little bit, I would jump out of bed or rush over to him and I would immediately start trying to rock him side to side while he was in his bassinet or rub the spot between his eyebrows or whatever I needed to do to get him back to fully being asleep. But, all I was doing was actually waking him up.
It was because my husband got up at 4 a.m. and he had to go to work and be around people and function, so I didn't want the baby to be waking up and waking him up. So, I was kind of on overdrive. But, if you just let him make those grunts and stir. If you think of it like ourselves, we don't sleep through the night. We might not be fully conscious of it, but we roll over, we change positions, we adjust our pillow, we get up and use the restroom. I probably couldn't tell you how many times I woke up last night, but I didn't fully sleep without stirring at all. They're the same way. When we start trying to interfere to get them back to sleep, we end up disrupting them a little bit more.
I knew I was at my absolute breaking point when I was in a Walmart parking lot. I went to get diapers. Not a big deal. I get to the car and I realize I bought the wrong size. So, I just left Walmart. I'm in the car. Nobody cares, right? A normal person is like, “Oh, okay. I'll just pop back in. I'll swap them out, I'll return it or, if I don't want to go back into Walmart, I'll go to Kroger on my way and get the size I need and deal with it later.” I have a complete meltdown in the parking lot. I'm bawling. I cannot stop. I'm just uncontrollably crying, all because I bought the wrong diapers.
If you dug into that a little bit, it's probably because it was just one more thing that I couldn't handle because I was so exhausted, to the point where you're not functioning and so these little bitty things that don't matter in the scheme of things, become these really big icebergs.
Q: When do you recommend people start looking to have some schedule for newborns or infants?
A: Babies—and people in general—just strive so much better on routine and structure. So, I think from the beginning, you can kind of have some predictability to your day—even though it's chaos and you're just in survival mode from the start. That's by little things like trying to break away.
Babies go through this day-night confusion where they want to be up all night and sleep all day. So, you can do that by getting outside, getting lots of sunshine, having the lights on inside—even if it's nap time and they're taking a nap and they're swinging or you're holding them in the living room—keeping the lights on, not being so afraid to make noise around baby, all of those things.
Then, when it is winding down at the end of the day and it's nighttime, dimming the lights, turning the lights off. If you have blackout curtains. Sound machines. Very soothing, quiet. Just getting them used to those things from the start, even though they're not going to pick up on that right away.
Then from there, just keeping up with their wake windows as much as you can, following their own sleepy cues. You could probably Google when a two-month-old should nap. But, following your own baby signs that you pick up on, because I can tell you all day long what to do with your baby, but I strongly believe that you know your baby best. Throughout this whole process of working together, I want you to follow those instincts. If your baby's hungry, absolutely feed them. When they're starting to get tired, even if they're supposed to be up for 15 more minutes, having some flexibility and not being so rigid, but while getting them on track for knowing what's expected of when to sleep.
Q: Do you have any different advice for the second baby, or do you think that sleep for the newborn, even if it is the second or third baby, should be prioritized in a certain window of their life?
A: I think it's a blend. I think that it's a little bit of both when it comes to those second kids. You're still going to be doing all of the things for the first because your toddler maybe needs to get out of the house and go do those things. So, I think the second baby does kind of tend to come around, go along for the ride a little bit more. But, you can still have some of that predictability and routine and not sacrifice so much of their sleep. That way they don't get overtired and then they're fussy and then they're fighting sleep and then they're up all night even more because they're so tired and all of those things.
It's funny because we're actually going through that right now because we have a three-year-old and a one-year-old, and my three-year-old is down to one nap a day and currently, our one-year-old is just now transitioning from two to one. But, when he was on two naps, he would nap from 1030 to 12. Then, at 1230 or 1, my toddler would go down. Then, he would wake up an hour or an hour-and-a-half later, and then my baby was going to sleep. So, from 1030 to 430, someone in our house was sleeping. It's like you can't do anything.
We are a little bit stricter when it comes to that just because I know so much that they need their sleep, and our babies especially want every ounce of sleep they can get and they function so much better. We don't do that much, but we try not to be so glued to the house. That way, if something comes up or my toddler wants to do something or there's a family function. Because I know it's probably not ideal to just stay inside every single day because of naps.
Q: What is your take on dream feeds?
A: I think it's case by case. I have recommended them to families that I think it would do really well. Some babies just don't take to it. It wakes them up more. They don't like it. They don't care. They're still going to get up and look for that food later in the night. I think that it can work. It doesn't always.
I more focus on trying to get the full feeds during the day so that they need less overnight. But, I'm all for, especially in the really early days, if they need to eat, feed them. There's other ways that we can break up and work through sleep training by not having them nurse to sleep. But, still feed your baby if they're hungry.
A lot of people think, “I'm breastfeeding, I can't do that.” I'm really big to distinguish between night weaning and sleep training. They are not the same things. You can still breastfeed your baby or give your baby a bottle, but work through the same sleep training steps to get them to go back to sleep independently without having to nurse to sleep. So, you don't have those bad habits or negative sleep associations. I try not to call them bad habits, because it's every mom, every baby does it. It's comforting and it's soothing and it's so natural.
But, work on starting, when baby is ready, which is about five to six months when they can go all night. Not every baby will. Some might still need that bottle or nursing session throughout the night. But, start to focus on fuller feeds during the day. So, they're still getting all of the calories they need. Then, if the baby takes to a dream feed, maybe topping them off.
Q: What do you recommend as far as sleep training for that six-month period? If moms know they can make it through the night, how do we get them to sleep through the night and go to bed on their own?
A: So, I don't want to hate on the Cry It Out Method, because it absolutely works and you usually have pretty fast results. But, if my mommy heart is not okay with it, then I cannot recommend it to my family. So, I will never recommend it to my mamas unless they come to me and they're like, “I need to sleep in like two days. Whatever I can do. I don't care.” But, I just think there's other options that mom can be more comfortable with. The Cry It Out Method is not harmful. It's totally fine. If you use it, I stand behind it. It works. I just think there are better methods out there that mom can feel more comfortable with and baby can feel more comfortable with.
Maybe sleep has looked a certain way for this whole child's life, whether it's six months or three years. If we suddenly sleep train, we switched this light switch. That's a big change even for them. They're tiny little people and that can be really hard for them, because they have gotten used to maybe being rocked to sleep or bounced to sleep or just being held by mom or nursing to sleep. So, I think we can go at it with a more gentler approach so they feel a little bit more comfortable.
When we get into toddlers, it’s kind of the same thing. But, I try to make it a lot more fun for them. For my little guys, I do. It's kind of the Ferber Method with a spin on it. From the school that I graduated from, Centers of Pediatric Sleep Management, they have the Check and Control Method. It’s kind of like the Ferber Method in that it is a timer-based method. But, I really like it because it gives the moms a time. They know if my baby is still crying in ten minutes or whatever that we agree on to start with, then they're going to go in there, they're going to check on their baby, and their baby is going to know, “Hey, mommy's here. It's just time for bed. I love you.” Then mom goes and we start over.
So, it's not this, “How long are they going to cry? Is this going to be all night?” Typically, the most I've seen is an hour and a half. Sometimes they end up crying less than that, but typically they're able to fall asleep. Then each night, if mom is really consistent, it gets less and less because the baby knows that they're okay, they can fall asleep, and they know how to fall asleep on their own. I always recommend it to my moms.
We can avoid the Cry It Out Method, but there's going to be some crying. But, you're doing this to help them, it's not something you're doing to them. I also recommend if you're out there listening and you're like, “Oh, I can't take it.” Give the baby monitor to your partner, go outside, take some deep breaths and reset—even if it's sixty seconds—then come back to it feeling like you can do this. It's a short amount of time that you can commit.
Q: Talk to us about toddlers and their sleep needs.
A: I am so excited! I love all things toddler sleep. It's kind of my jam from watching my own little guy grow up. I say grow up—he's three, but he just seems like such a big little kid most days. It’s just that from two to three, how many milestones happen and everything that they learn is wild. But, I have loved watching him be able to communicate more, to see his imagination, and you can talk to them, you can reason with them—maybe not reason with them on some days—but it's just really fun.
I kind of looked into that as far as sleep, because sleep is my favorite part of the day. I always tell moms it's not just because they're going to go to sleep and you get some “you” time, but it's really special. We read books together, we get last-minute snuggles. We do the bedtime routine and all of that, and it's something that we both really look forward to.
So, when I first started sleep consulting, I was working more with babies. Then, I'd get toddler questions and other moms don't feel the same way. They're having a really hard time. These kids can run and kick and scream. They can see the pajamas come out and run the other way, and it's a nightmare. I have moms that have the baby nighttime anxiety at first and now they dread bedtime. This is like a miserable thing and the kid doesn't enjoy it. Mom doesn't enjoy it. Nobody is having fun.
We can turn this into the best part of their day. Because they can communicate, they can have such a higher level of involvement and just really get into it. So, taking the same principles of sleep consulting, but finding ways to make it fun for them to get the toddler more involved and more on board with what's about to happen to avoid this big light switch change moment. In that way, it's not so much of an adjustment. So then, hopefully parents get a little less pushback.
Q: Is there like a range of when they drop naps?
A: The two-year-old nap strike is a real thing and it's a phase. Push through it. Keep going. Oh, don't drop naps. So many kids at two fight it and protest. Push through it. They'll get back. I really like to keep napping as long as you can. If you can get to four, I think that is amazing. I recommend, in lieu of naps at four, doing a quiet time hour where they're resting, they're laying in their bed or on the couch, and they have to rest for at least 30 to 45 minutes and then 15 to 30 minutes of quiet time.
They can play with a puzzle and do some quiet activities by themselves. Then after that hour, they're back. That can be a really good reset to get them through the rest of the day. But four would be like my ideal. It's okay if you want to drop a nap, some kids might not make it. If it is three or three-and-a-half and they're really just fighting it, instead of just skipping it all together, that's when I would really start implementing the quiet time in place of that nap.
Q: What is your advice for when another baby comes?
A: It is hard when a new baby comes, and I actually have worked with a few families this year where that's why they hired me. They were like, “Hey, new baby is coming. I have got to get my toddler sleeping.” Toddlers and babies are a lot more resilient to avoiding sounds. So, usually a baby won't wake up a toddler or vice versa. It does happen, but they sleep through a lot more than we would think, even with thin walls and stuff.
Q: In your experience, would you say that really having that conversation like “Tonight, buddy, you're going to fall asleep by yourself. Mommy and daddy are right outside.” Then, let him cry it out regardless?
A: I go through stages. I really try to do a lot of preparation leading up to night one of sleep training. So, doing a lot more independent play in their bedroom, getting them comfortable in their sleep space, tiring out their bodies by getting outside, working out all those last-minute zoomies and all the energy they have.
I look at sleep in a 24-hour period. So, looking at when they're waking up, when they're going to bed, what their naps are. When I'm working with families one-on-one, looking at the current schedule. What are you doing? What have you tried? What are your sleep goals? I like to ease them into it, and it depends on what the family is going through.
So, with your son being used to a parent being in the room as he falls asleep, having a lot of conversations with him. Call a family meeting. Get everyone involved. If you guys have pets, get the pets involved. Come into the family meeting and talk about what that time looks like, what's expected that way. It's not this big surprise of, “Well, we're not going to be sitting with you while you sleep tonight.”
There are ways of gradually pulling back the verbal assurances or the physical aides of being right there. That way, they don't get so overwhelmed in the beginning. If you give them all of this love and support up front so they aren't so overwhelmed or afraid of what's going to happen.
It's just like riding a bike. You wouldn't put your toddler on a balance bike for the very first time and be like, “Go ride down the sidewalk. You're going to be fine.” They might fall over. They might want you to stand right beside them. They might need a little bit of help. Then, as they are able to practice those skills and develop those and get stronger and figure out what they're supposed to do, they get more confidence to where they're like, “Okay, I got this.”
I actually had this sweet little boy that I worked with earlier this summer. We were halfway through the program and the mom had a one-year-old who had cried out in his crib in the room over, so she told her toddler, “Hey, I'll be right back.” He said, “Oh, that's okay, mommy. You go check on Bubby. I got this.” She got up. She teared up in the hallway and texted me like, “Oh my gosh, I'm crying.” She checked on her other son, but the little boy that I was working with fell asleep on his own and it was amazing. She was so used to him having to fall asleep in her arms on the couch. She couldn't put him in his bed. Then, she would just transfer him to her own bed. So, it was this big transformation of, “It's okay, mommy, I got this.” It was awesome.
Q: How long do you work with your clients, and how long do you ask them to patiently wait for results?
A: For my babies, four to six months is the perfect sweet spot for sleep training. But typically, if you are consistent, then within a couple of nights—three to four nights‚—you're typically seeing results. I've worked with some families that went from their six-month-old waking up 15 times a night and saw results in two nights.
I work with families for two weeks, and they usually start to see results. Now, if they're going a little bit slower—because I try to meet families where they're at, and they might not be able to just dive in—even going slowly and working up to independent sleep. But, about two weeks.
For my toddlers, we do a prep plan first and it really depends on what sleep looks like. So, if they are completely used to falling asleep in mom's arms on the couch or having to sleep in her bed, then that prep plan period is going to be a little bit longer, because it's going to be more of an adjustment to just go straight to sleeping in his or her bed. So, a prep plan could be like a couple of nights to a week max, three to five days. Maybe we're just working on early morning wakes and getting naps more consistent.
Then, I work with families for three weeks for my toddlers—usually 21 days or less. They do need a little bit more time, because toddlers are just more complex. But, I try really hard to make it fun. I always tell my families on Day 15 or Day 22, I'm not disappearing. If you have a question, I'm here. I'm super easy to work with and get a hold of, so if you have any follow up questions, just reach out. It's fine.
Q: What are pros and cons of co-sleeping?
A: I think a lot of families do it out of desperation. They're so tired, they just can't fight it anymore. They know if they bring kiddo into bed with them, they're going to sleep. Everyone gets a better night's sleep. They can function easier. So, I think it’s a lot of convenience.
I actually have worked or talked to moms that are just not ready to let go because of the attachment of it. It's really sweet to be able to have those cuddles in. Sometimes, it's more of mom having to kind of work through those emotions to let go and for her to come to terms with, “I know that we're not sleeping. We're not getting the quality of sleep that we would, and it's time. I'm ready.” So, I think that's a big one.
I work with a lot of families to break away from co-sleeping, especially for toddlers. For my babies under one, I'm really big on safe sleep. So, I make safe sleep part of every single sleep plan. I make sure to give that education to all of my families. So, if a family is wanting to continue co-sleeping, then I would likely recommend a different sleep consultant if they're wanting to work through night stretches and falling asleep on their own while still co-sleeping.
Q: Safe sleep. I feel like everyone will admit that rules change. Things I think are semi-new: sound machines, weighted sleep sacks, and hats. I saw something with American Pediatrics that now you're not supposed to have a hat. Is that true?
A: For sleep? Yes, and nothing that could fall off and get over their face or anything. So, all for the baby wearing hats around the house if they're awake, if they're doing tummy time, if you're holding them, but when they go in their bassinet or safe sleep area to not have that on.
As for sound machines, I love sound machines. I'm not an affiliate or anything, but I absolutely love the Hatch sound machine because you can have it on your phone. So, it's really convenient. You can adjust the sound and put it on a timer so you don't have to worry about turning it on and off.
Q: Do we leave it on all the time or just to get him to sleep?
A: I leave it on all the time. I have it on a timer. So, whenever he's not in his room taking naps, then it's off. But, it's set to be on throughout the entire night and for naps. I only like the white noise. The reason being is that all the other sounds might be super relaxing—the rain, the crickets, the thunder, the waves crashing—but they play on a loop. So, eventually, when it gets to the end, it resets and there's a lull in sound. There's a break in the pattern. We might not detect it, but it's enough to be disruptive to them. Like if your lights kick off in a storm and the fan kicks off for a split second, it wakes us up. I love the white noise because it's a constant sound. There's no break. It doesn't loop. The pattern is the same. So, it's just a little bit easier for them, a little less disruptive.
Q: What about weighted sleep sacks?
A: For my teeny tiny babies, I really like the Swaddle Me swaddle. You can get it where it zips at the bottom and velcros across the chest. They also have transition models for when one arm needs to come out, and then two arms when they start getting a little bit more mobile.
I'm not a big fan of the weighted sleep sacks. I think some of them are not recalled and still around, but I really like the Magic Merlin. It's not technically a weighted sleep suit, but it's like a big marshmallow. It's really thick, so it's harder for them to move. It helps with that Startle Moro Reflex. So, it has their arms out by their side. They can't move around as much, and they can use that a little bit longer. So, even if they are rolling from back to belly during the day, they can still use the Magic Merlin up until they can learn to roll in it. Then, they can't use it anymore. But, they have different sizes.
So, my first could roll really fast but, in the Magic Merlin, it took him a really long time. So, we actually got the bigger size and kept him in that thing, because he loved it. But then, my second learned almost immediately how to roll in the Magic Merlin, so he didn't get to really use it at all.
Burt's Bees has really nice, good quality sleep suits that you just zip up. It looks like a potato sack. They're not super thick, so you can wear jammies under it. I like the footed ones where the feet are out and they kind of run around. They have fleecy ones, so that way it's like a wearable blanket for toddlers. If you are using the Magic Merlin, you just need socks and a diaper because it's really thick.
Q: Do you have any favorite hacks?
A: I really absolutely would want every mom to have blackout curtains and a sound machine, because I think it's very helpful in regulating their sleep and keeping them asleep. The sun can be so bright and want to wake you up so early and it's too early to start your day. But, I think that those two things go a long way, and I recommend that every mom have those.
Q: When you travel time zones, what do you tell people to look out for? Or when we change our clocks?
A: I do recommend working 15-minute increments. So depending if you're gaining or losing sleep, you can adjust bedtime by 15 minutes a few nights before and then after. So, it's a smaller adjustment. If you're traveling and it's like an hour or two time zone difference, you can on the front end or back end of your trip, adjust it by 15 minutes here and there. So it's not so much of a change. If they're older, they're toddlers and they're going to be a little bit more adaptable anyway. But for the little guys, that can be really hard. Even losing or gaining the hour being thrown off for the big time change, that is hard because it's a big change for them. You can do the same where you're adjusting it on the front end to prepare them. So when they're actually on vacation, it may be a little bit easier. The first day there and maybe day home might be a little bit rougher. But, if you can do some adjustments and tweaks before you go to start building up to that time change.
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This blog post was written based on kozēkozē Podcast Episode 383: Toddler Sleep with Aly Dabbs.
If you’d like to listen to the conversation first-hand, tune in here.